The It Depends Podcast with Matt and Tenille

#5 Beyond Cost-Benefit: Defining Value for Investment with Julian King

In this episode of It Depends, we sit down with internationally recognized evaluator Julian King to explore what it really means to assess value. Moving beyond traditional cost-benefit analysis and social return on investment, Julian introduces his award-winning Value for Investment (VfI) approach - an interdisciplinary framework that combines economic rigor with stakeholder perspectives.
 
Together, they unpack how VfI helps evaluators and commissioners define value propositions, integrate mixed methods, and make evaluative reasoning more transparent. They also touch on rubrics, participatory evaluation, and Julian’s idea of “Cubist evaluation,” which emphasizes multiple perspectives and collective sense-making in practice.
 
Julian covered a lot in this episode, and there's plenty of it freely accessible online! Check out the below resources:
Julian's home page with free resources and training opportunities: https://www.julianking.co.nz/
Julian's 'Evaluation and Value for Investment' Substack
A Guide to Evaluation of Value for Money in UK Public Service written by Julian King and Alex Hurrell
A specific Substack post by Julian on 'Mixed Reasoning and Cubist Evaluation'
Jane Davidson's book which changed Julian's approach: Evaluation Methodology Basics: The Nuts and Bolts of Sound Evaluation
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#4 Context Matters! Designing and Scaling in Systems with John Gargani

Scaling impact sounds simple—just do more of what worked. In reality, it’s messy: contexts shift, resources are finite, politics and procurement warp timelines, and “success” looks different to different people. That’s why designing and evaluating for scale is one of the hardest gigs in our field.
In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Matt sits down with evaluation pioneer John Gargani to explore the intersections of design, evaluation, and scaling impact. With over three decades of experience, John shares how a “misspent youth” led him into evaluation, why design and evaluation are inseparable, and how evaluators can play a crucial role in shaping better programs from the outset.
Together, Matt and John unpack the nuances of design thinking, the discipline required for innovation, and the challenges of moving beyond linear “growth models” of scale toward more dynamic, context-driven approaches. Along the way, they dive into real-world examples—from global health crises to water infrastructure—and consider what it takes to responsibly scale innovations without losing sight of ethics, trade-offs, and long-term sustainability.
We mention some resources in this episode - including John's book - which is free! Here are some quick links to get you started:
Scaling Impact: Innovaton for the Public Good by Rob McLean and John Gargani
GIZ Scaling Digital Innovations Workbook
Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.
 

#3 Caring for Data, Caring for Country - Indigenous Data Sovereignty with Skye Trudgett

In this episode of The It Depends Podcast, Tenille Moselen speaks with Dr. Skye Trudgett, a proud First Nations woman and CEO of Kowa, about putting Indigenous data sovereignty into practice.
Skye shares her path from aspiring sleep scientist to leading national work in evaluation, research, and community-led data governance. This episode demystifies and unpacks what Indigenous data sovereignty really means (“caring for data so data can care for Country and community”), common misconceptions, and the small but powerful changes that we can all be implementing that can shift systems. 
We're not going to summarise it all here for you - this is an episode to check-out for yourself! After you've listened, we'd recommend you check out the resources and links below to learn more.
Resources and Links:
Start your journey by reading the Maiam nayri Wingara Indigenous Data Sovereignty Principles and other resources on their website
Kowa - national leaders in the design and implementation of First Nations-led Understanding, Measurement, Evaluation & Learning (UMEL) practice. 
The OCCAAARS Framework- which Skye references in the podcast and is based on her PhD.
Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.
 

#2 Blowing Bubbles: A Guide to the 2025 Australian Evaluation Conference with Kim Grey and Ruth Nicholls

Join Matt and Tenille for an exclusive behind-the-scenes chat with Kim Grey and Ruth Nicholls, the dynamic duo co-convening the 2025 Australian Evaluation Conference in Canberra. Discover what's in store when the evaluation community gathers from 15-19 September under the theme "Beyond the Bubble."
Kim and Ruth take us through their thinking on why 'Beyond the Bubble' was the right theme, some background on the exciting lineup of international keynote speakers, and some sneak peaks into the sessions they're excited to see.
We explore the four conference sub-themes - Foundations, Connecting, Cultivating, and Transforming. Listen to hear why the conference isn't just about methods - it's about relationships.
Whether you're seasoned or new to the field, Kim and Ruth share why the magic of evaluation conferences lies in the unexpected connections, the corridor conversations, and the chance to see familiar approaches used in completely new ways. 
See the Conference Program and register: https://www.aes25.aes.asn.au/
Learn more about the Australian Evaluation Society, including how to become a member, their professional development program, and more: https://www.aes.asn.au/
 
Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.

#1 Constraints, Commissioning, and Causation with Eleanor Williams

In this debut episode of It Depends Podcast, co-hosts Matt Healey and Tenille Moselen dive into the murky middle of evaluation practice—where complexity thrives, answers are rarely black and white, and good questions matter more than quick fixes.
They’re joined by Eleanor Williams, Managing Director of the Australian Centre for Evaluation, for a wide-ranging and thoughtful conversation on evidence, ethics, and embedding evaluation in the heart of public policy. Together, they explore:
What makes evidence fit for purpose—especially in fast-paced policy environments
The importance of meaningful relationships between evaluators and commissioners
The role and realities of quasi-experimental design in the public sector
Thinking around everyday ethical dilemmas evaluators face.
This episode is a must-listen for anyone navigating the tension between rigour, relevance, and real-world constraints. It’s honest, nuanced, and full of insight.
Some of the resources mentioned in the episode are linked below:
The Australian Centre for Evaluation homepage, and specifically the Commonwealth Evaluation Toolkit
Relational Commissioning blog post by Eleanor Williams and Skye Trudgett
The UK Government’s Magenta Book – see including Annex A on different methods for use in evaluations
The webpage with more on the Australian Public Sector Evaluation Network (APSEN).
Thanks for listening to the It Depends Podcast! You can find out more about First Person Consullting on our website, follow us on LinkedIn, or sign up to our semi-regular newsletter.